Busting the Myths
Apparently, Wales is too small and too poor to be independent...
Myth #1: Wales is too small to survive as an independent nation
Myth Busted: Wales, a country of 3 million people, is not too small to survive as an independent country. It is a fact that there are over 100 other independent countries in the world that are smaller than Wales. In fact, of the top 10 wealthiest countries in terms of GDP per capita, 9 have a population of less than 5 million, and 7 of those have a smaller population than Wales.
Of the countries of the European Union, the six most prosperous are small countries:
| EU Member State | GDP per head (in PPP) | Population |
| Luxembourg | 58,900 | 0.5m |
| Ireland | 32,600 | 4.2m |
| Netherlands | 29,500 | 16.3m |
| Austria | 28,900 | 8.3m |
| Denmark | 28,600 | 5.4m |
| Belgium | 27,700 | 10.5m 1 |
Economic prosperity is no longer secured through being a large country or empire nor by using military force to gain access to markets.
There is no longer a link between the size of a country and its economic success.
That a small country the size of Wales can prosper is evident.
Those that argue otherwise are either unable to accept the evidence for this, or must believe there is something peculiar about the people of Wales that means they’re incapable of making a success of things.
Myth #2: Wouldn’t Wales’s budget deficit be too big for it to cope?
Myth Busted: The UK currently has the biggest budget deficit in the developed world.
The argument that Wales gets more in public spending than it pays in taxes is often seen as evidence that Wales cannot pay its own way. When you consider the deficit of the UK as a whole, the argument does not stand up to scrutiny.
There are undoubtedly economic challenges facing Wales. The current GVA of Wales is around 77% of the UK average.
The challenge to those who oppose independence on the grounds that Wales cannot afford it is to explain why being part of the United Kingdom has led to this poor economic performance.
It’s important to remember that Wales has historically been a creditor to the UK Treasury and more than paid its way over the years. Of course the wealth that Wales once generated, and will do so once again, did not remain in Wales for the benefit of its people.
Myth #3: People don’t care about independence. It’s a distraction from real issues that matter to people.
Myth Busted: We believe that independence for the people of Wales is central to a prosperous economy and society. The quality of local services, job security, affordable housing which are the issues that affect people’s lives can be dealt with far better by an accountable, elected Welsh Government.
Myth #4: We’re stronger together! Why break-up Britain?
Myth Busted: The ‘separatist’ label is often thrown around by opponents of Welsh independence. Do they think we’d somehow tear Wales apart at the border and move it somewhere else? The truth is we are the opposite of separatists. We want to be a full part of the international community and of institutions such as the European Union and the UN. An independent Wales would still be a neighbour to the other countries of the United Kingdom. There will always be strong, social, cultural and economic bonds between the people of the countries of the UK.
The difference would be that we could be a partner to the other countries with our own voice being expressed. This would make for a stronger relationship.
Myth #5: Most people in Wales feel Welsh and British and will never want independence.
Myth Busted: In the modern world it is inevitable that people within Wales will have several identities.
Identity is a personal thing and is separate from questions of democratic accountability.
Personal identity does not necessitate support for a particular way of being governed.
Myth #6: Independence is irrelevant in the modern globalised world?
Myth Busted: The inter-dependence of countries is a fact of modern life. We want to play our part in the international community. As Winnie Ewing of the SNP put it: “Stop the World, we want to get on”. Globalisation not only makes an independent Wales relevant; it also makes it a more viable prospect.
An independent Wales becoming a full member of global institutions such as the UN and playing a full part in the global economy would give Wales the opportunity to thrive.
No longer does being a part of a large country or empire provide an economic advantage, small countries have access to the same global market.
Myth #7: Wales would be kicked out of the European Union.
Myth Busted: It has been officially confirmed that Wales, if independent, would remain within the European Union. Former Secretary General of the European Commission confirmed this, when discussing the case of Scotland:
“There is no precedent and no provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish independence would create two new member states out of one. They would have equal status with each other and with other member states.
The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland…Anyone attacking the claim in respect of one country is attacking the claim in respect of the other. It is not possible to divide the cases.” 2
Also, under the principles of the Vienna Convention on the Law of International Treaties, Wales would remain a part of the European Union, as would the other countries of the UK. The Convention states that an international agreement still applies to newly independent countries when a signatory state is broken-up.
1 Key Facts and Figures about Europe and the European Union (Office for Official Publications of the European Union)
2 Taken from The Independence Book, Scotland in Today’s World.
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Recent comments
Currently only displaying English comments.
Wales could be neutral in war, if it were independent. No Welsh Soldiers abroad etc
Why should Welsh soldiers go and fight in countries that are not a threat to Welsh national security.
There are many benefits.
It's a question of the life after for them as much as it is whether Wales and the Welsh can.
Or perhaps they simply don’t take the idea of independence seriously.
The point Mr. Wickens is this, independence for Cymru does not mean issolation, it is to exersise the power of choice in what we do internationally and at home. Quite a contrast to the present regime.
What is really important is the survival of the Welsh Language and Culture. It is the duty of all Welsh Nationals.
Until four years ago (until I view a website from BBC) I was under the belief that the mother tongue of all the Native British people is English!.Welsh is the most widely spoken language in Great Britain next to English.
Why can't Englsih Schools at least to certain extent teach Cymru as a Second Language in their schools?
And I hardly think that Spaniards in wooden ships are a particularly big threat these days.
We can still be culturally and socially secure from the Union but no person here could guarantee an economically safe future for an independant Wales.
People here are right, there may be a day where the United Kingdom will be dissolved, but it should not be now, in a time where Wales will have no say in international affairs and we wouldn't be that independant, as we would still be part of the EU.
Sorry to the separatists here but it's not Wales's time to leave the union.
Why is it that we have no confidence in our people or country? Is it ok for Ireland, but not Wales; for Greenland, but not Wales; for Finland, Norway or Estonia, but not Wales? Yes there have been countries that have been affected seriously by the credit crunch, but the big countries are too. Brown laughed when Alex Salmond talked about Ireland and stated Scotland could not cope with independence, because they went in to a recession. Guess what, a few months later so was the UK. There are some that say Wales would have a £3billion deficit; Brown is planning the UK to have over a trillion pounds in deficit. Enough is enough, we need to talk sensibly about how we can improve Wales, her society, economy and the way it is governed.
Looking forwards, who is the most likely to make the best decisions for the people of Wales - elected Welsh people at the Senedd, or the London government with other concerns and other priorities ? Think John Redwood and our national anthem and you will get the picture.
After a decade the Senedd needs to keep maturing - yes. I have complete faith in our young people to grasp the opportunity.
I would love a rebrand as well. Rhodesia became Zimbabwe/Rhodesia and then Zimbabwe. Wales should go Cymru/Wales and then Cymru.
No more on our knees in the chapels and in the pits.
Just because Wales and England were united by a piece of paper doesn't alter the lack of equality the Welsh had. For a long time we were a second class citizen.
I'm not saying it is wrong to learn about "Britain", but when it comes before the History of Wales. That is when I have a problem.
And that is what is happening today.
Like I said before, the children of Wales are being kept from their own past.
The Henrician acts were the means by which the English parliament unilaterally declared that the law should apply in Wales "as it does in this realm" and unilaterally assigned Wales MPs (very generous of them really) at a lower rate than England (one member per county rather than two, with boroughs grouped by county rather than having individual representation -- this was not changed until 1885).
For the next two centuries, laws intended to apply in Wales explicitly mentioned "the Dominion of Wales" in their extent. The 1746 Act merely altered the presumption from being that a new English law would not apply in Wales to being that it would. It did not abolish the Dominion of Wales.
And if we're being wonderfully mischievously pedantic, a good example of a law from the interim period that failed to mention the Dominion of Wales was the Act of Union, 1707. So it wouldn't be wholly inaccurate to say that Wales is only part of the United Kingdom de facto and not de jure.
But there is yet more trouble for narrow-minded anti-Welsh people if they want to play silly pseudo-historical games: it's quite clear from the Laws in Wales Acts that county boundaries fail to follow the border. As the acts were so badly drafted, it's not impossible to press for the return of a whole host of small and not-so-small penenclaves from Oswestry and Ellesmere to the part of Chepstow town east of the Wye.
And don't think that giving a Welsh reading to constitutional law is unlikely: exactly that happened in the Ireland.
The Crown and its British ministers have a choice: they can either act in good faith towards Welsh Home Rule, as they did in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand; or they can repeat their Irish blunder, mixing their usual too-little-too-late and black-and-tan tactics. Seeking to justify such tactics by an extreme anti-Welsh interpretation of old laws you haven't read is only asking for trouble.
I mean fully incorperated in that Wales enterted into a full Union with England becoming legally one country. And yes Welsh history is Welsh history and British History is Welsh History as Wales for as i have explained is part of Britain. There is nothing wrong people learning about Britain as Britain is for if you like it or not a country Wales has been part of for a long time.
I am sorry but I fail to understand the "fully incorporated" unless you are refering to the attempts of destroying our language?
What about the Treachery of the Blue Books?
I also fail to see how just because Wales was annexed to England, how does that suddenly mean that Welsh History is British history?
Surely, Welsh history is Welsh history?
In reply to your comment I would suggest that the fact that after learning about British history in education leading to people wanting to remain British is not a bad thing. The history of Britain is surely the history of Wales, Wales was annexed to England in 1284 and fully incorporated in the 1530s and 40s, As much as you may want to get away from it the history of Wales has been the history of Britain for nearly a millennium.
The fact is this, without our language we would struggle to say we were Welsh. We would just be another English speaking country which yes may have a history of different culture but our language is one of the only things we still have TODAY to make us who we are and to show we are different. Many of Wales don't know their history which is another story but everyone knows of their language.
Cymraeg is vital to the identity of us. Whether or not we can speak the language many of us are proud of it, I think it is something to be extremely proud of, English has wiped out languages across the world through colonisation yet Wales, England's neighbours have held on to our language.
It is also fact that there is a demand for more Welsh speaking schools. Especially here in Cardiff, parents really struggle trying to get their children in Welsh Schools because there is simply not enough room.
So I think you may need to re-think your "ideas" .
In a global economy and an international community the voice Britain has in the world is one Wales could not achieve on its own. Also we should all take into account yes small countries can do ok in the good times but as we see from countries like Iceland and even Ireland (the latter being in the EU) cannot compete in a way that the United Kingdom can.
What I will say to you is this, why?
Why is this?
It is because the Welsh people don't know their own history. Many don't know what makes us different. They don't know the struggles of our ancestors. The invasion, the murder, the discrimination, the exploitation.
The nation curriculum doesn't teach the children of Wales about who they are. Instead they are thrown "Britishness" at every corner and are taught about the great English monarch.
If people knew the history of our country then people may start to want independence, because we deserve it. We are the last remnants of the "British" Empire.
It is time to let us stand on our own two feet.
Which is why a democratic debate is esential to increase the possible low interest Robert Reader says there is.
There is low interest in Politicians in this country but it doesn't mean the people are comfortable with them in fact it is quite the opposite.
Equaly low interest doesn't nessecarily equate to being comfortable with something, it could mean that not enough is known about the subject, so the more debate the better
"There will always be unionists in Wales to counter the threat of single minded nationalism. "
Interesting - I'd suggest that simbly blanking and refusing to debate is being narrow minded, and brutally stubborn 'sticking with Britain' mentality is narrow minded.
the use of 'nationalist' as a derogatory term is pathetic also - if you don't believe in Wales and the Welsh people then you're not a welsh nationalist. But you do believe in Britain - you're a British nationalist
a narrow minded British nationalist
now start engaging with the debate not childishly throwing insults - you've been presented with a powerful arguement and you can't answer it. Be a mature person and either admit you're wrong or admit you're a narrow minded British nationalist
But, it is alright for ’Unionists’ to speak about English or British nationalism, meaning Wales being a part of England, with no rights of our own in determining that we have a say in how run our affairs.
Surely debate is a democratic right not a waste of time and unless there is one, how can, as has been stated, the supposed vast majority of Wales who are against this debate (though how that is worked out I don’t know) decide if they are for or against.
As for the statement ‘Wales is and always will be part of the United Kingdom where the people of Wales can meet their full potential’. What potential, we are the poorest part of this great United Kingdom in every aspect in society which London Governments have always controlled no matter what political persuasion. We have always seemed to come of worse with so called Socialist Governments for some reason. Perhaps Unionists could explain that.
No matter what, we can not be worse off Governing ourselves than we have been being governed from London.
The arguement in my eyes is won.
Today I have read in a basque newspaper about this website. I give you congratulations for such a brilliant initiative! I am travelling to Great Britain next week and I would be so pleased for visiting your country. I hope I will do and start taking part in your wonderful project for independence.
Both basques and welsh deserve to be free (no matter how much our oppressors say we are too small and too poor to get our purpose). Unfortunately, nobody has said the truth: that both of us are able to build a strong state in which the whole population will enjoy prosperity.
I support your cause and I encourage you not to stop fighting until you fulfill it. Jo ta ke irabazi arte! Let´s try until the victory is done!
Welsh and basque united for freedom! God bless us!
We'll all get there... eventually... :) Our countries survived centuries of oppression; our independence is now well overdue.
Independence=Resolution of Conflicts=Peace&Prosperity
I don't think so because I'm Galician and I'm for a free Galician state in Europe. Do you know what the main Spaniard reason to refuse our independence is? Well, they say: " Galicia? Oh no! Galicia is too poor and too small to be independent ".
However, that isn't the real problem. The problem is that there are lots of Galicians convinced that we are poor and weak and that we completely depend on Spain to survive: " But for Spain we would be starving to death ". And these Galicians don't take a close look at the facts and at the reality. What is the reality? Of course we have grown under the Spaniard rule (in 500 years!) but there are some statistics which show that the economic well-being that Spain gives us is a big lie:
- 400.000 jobs have been lost since 1979 (the only part of Spain which has lost jobs).
- 12.000 young Galicians are leaving their country every year because they can't find a good job.
- Our countryside is dying fastly with 1300 places uninhabitated and another 1700 inhabitated by one (old) person.
- Our economy and our productive sectors (milk, fish...) are declining as never before.
- The strong sector of our economy is the builiding industry. Although thousands of buildings are being put up most of those builidings are just too close to the coast, they are distroying our landscape, our coast (like in the Mediterranean coast) and a big part are bought by people from abroad who come to our country in the summer...
But we have to say: Thanks Spain.
I congratulate the Plaid Cymru on this excelent and needed campaign and I encourage every single person who visits this web to support WelshCan, as I do. I think we need things like this down here in order to explain people that we aren't so poor, so weak and that we don't depend on Spain as much as they want us to belive.
We Galicians are with our celtic Welsh brothers in our common fight for the sovereignty for our countries.
As we experience in Flanders nowadays, autonomy (and mutatis mutandis independence) doesn't bring any fundamental changes if the new (Flemish or Welsh) structures are copies of the former (Belgian or British) structures. The only difference then is the creation of a new establishment, Flemish or Welsh in name - but that will be as arrogant and corrupt as the former one. The only difference then will be that the population is oppressed in their own language instead of a foreign language.
If you want independence to bring change, fundamental change and democratic benefits for Cymru and its people - then don't get rid of Britain, but get rid of all British structures as well.
Be original, be authentic, be an independent Cymru - don't be a mini copycat of Britain.
The consequences of independence in our economy are only a guess: they can be good in some cases, bad in others. As a matter of fact, newly created states in Europe have suffered economical troubles just after their creation. Yet, economical problems that may arise from a separation are not that important since none of those states have not asked to reunify with their former states.
An independent Cymru should guarantee the revival of Cymraeg, and ensure that Welsh culture and LANGUAGE are dominant in Cymru, integrate newly arrived people in Cymru and make Welsh culture accesible to everyone. Obviously, it should also protect Welsh economical interests. But, NOT only this.
If the goal of all this is to create another Ireland, honestly, I believe that it is not necessary. We already have enough English-speaking and anglo-cultural nations in the world, with some sort of "distinct" surface. We dont need a new one with a new label. But I think that REAL diversity is a clear benefit for everyone.
In any case, good luck and see you soon in the United Nations!! Cymru am Byth!!
I would love to see and hope to an independent Wales for many of the credible reasons already quoted.
However what is frightening me is that everyone who discusses devolution and indpendence, both for and against discusses the subject with no concern for the type of governance we currently live under and the kind of governance we would live under in an independent Wales. I am very concerned that no-one seems to consider that were Wales to become independent we would have the opportunity to change the system of democracy we live under.Wales seemsto be entirely happy to follow the UK system of democracy and retain a status quo but a Welsh version of it.
At no point have i heard anyone suggest that if we offeredideas on a better system and a system that was culturally relevant to Wales then that may motivate people to look at viable options for independence rather than the continued stagnent arguments that are continued on both sides of the fence.
Wales must forge a democratic society that is holistic and participatory unlike the minority democracy we live in today where the make the decisions for the masses.
I would emplore anyone who truly wants a viable and dynamic Wales capable of providing a more equal society with a better quality of living and shift away from absolute consumerism and free market capatalism pioneered by Margaret Thatcher, to read PARECON by Micheal Albert and google Porto Alegre, Brazil.
I shall never forget the arrogant David Williams interviewing a then inexperienced Bethan Jenkins on Dragons Eye before the, I think first Assembly elections, and asking her that old chestnut what about our own aircraft carrier in Wales and she embarrassingly and I was equally embarrassed for her, wasn’t able to answer. I have felt nothing but contempt for David Williams since added to by that self gratifying smirk on his face.
It was just like that other arrogant person Vincent Kane, when he interviewed two young and inexperienced members of Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Both Kane and Williams were shameful in their interviewing.
Now we have the chance to put those in opposition on the back foot and keep pushing and pushing the line and keeping the subject in peoples minds.
Wales doesn’t need an aircraft carrier or a Navy, as part of Europe in line with other small nations surely we have their protection as a whole, providing our neighbours don’t try and take away our ball.
Regarding my earlier post, I was just saying that it was a myth, that should be added to the list.
To be honest, gareth's point about the wag failing, I have to say, some of those AMs are useless politicians. They are councilors. With the likes of Adam Price and Elfyn Llwyd down in Cardiff Bay, we'd be much better off.
Watching first ministers questions is embarrasing sometimes.
Re: Welsh resources. Wales has many resources, as Michael Grail points out below. But concentrating on resources misses the point of economic growth - natural capital is just a part of it, and many resource-poor nations do well for themselves in term of GDP.
If you want a bright future for Wales, you need to address the very poor standard of governance from Cardiff Bay, to anyone out side of Glamorgan that is. The strategies implied have been bordering on hedonism. Billions have been spent on developments in Cardiff and the Swansea waterfront. My town still has flats with subsidence and asbestos. My county doesn’t have an Hospital, a University, a Museum, it doesn't have a crematorium for our dead, it doesn’t have a hospice for those who leave care at 18. Yet my county is the largest economy outside of Cardiff. The WAG has had a decade, and most of Wales will feel very let down. Nothing positive has been proved, and laws proposed such as banning smacking and all plastic bags would prove incredibly unpopular if genuine comprehensive polls were taken. All in all the impression of the WAG (outside of the secluded world of politicians and party members) is that it is currently juvenile and amateurish, and is in itself one of the very reasons for the mass brain drain out of the country. Our graduates see no future for themselves in a country administered by people they do not feel even nearly capable of stepping up to the plate.
This is a complete myth! What exactly have England got?
The good works of Leopold Kohr are essential reading, including the 'Breakdown of Nations' and 'Is Wales Viable?'.